New System - Maybe...

[PK|Argaf]

Given my current spec (which you can see in my footer), and also given this snippet of news "Crysis gets a November 16 release date"...

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/crysis-november-release,news-25967.html

If I were to build a new system in November - what would you recommend in terms of motherboard/cpu and graphics card ?

Or should I just get the best agp gfx card that money can buy - or will I be cpu bound.... Decisions decisions...

Your thoughts ?

[PK|Elite]

you can get...

an BFG 8600GT (PCI) for £91.64, and that will allow you to play direct x 10 games

[PK|Cerro]

you can get...

an BFG 8600GT (PCI) for £91.64, and that will allow you to play direct x 10 games

He's using AGP... PCI is ancient, PCI-Express is newer but his board will be AGP. An 8600 is pretty standard, not exactly a great card 7900GT performs the same, only with DX10 games does the 8600 perform better - so its not worth getting tbh.

AGP has pretty limited life left in it, sure you can get DX10 cards for it but they are not as powerful as PCI-Express cards (note that they no longer release matching versions for both platforms these days).

With Intels P35 boards now available, you've got a decent chipset available for the Core 2 Duos. An E6720 doesn't cost much and is a very good CPU - E4400 has the massive overclock potential of the E4300 but i'd take an E6720 because it starts high and can still go higher! I've not really had a chance to check out P35 boards, so couldn't give you specific models but there are alot out there now. The biggest question you face is DDR3 or DDR2 (some P35 boards do both, but why bother?)

DDR3 is new and will get much better but right now its costly and DDR2 ram will outperform it (for now). So its not exactly a great time to be choosing - but when is? You've also got the newer X38 version of the bearlake appearing in the coming months, which will support SLI (and possibly Crossfire) - although I don't personally see the use of it those boards will have many lovely extras that the P35 boards won't have. They will also support 4 core cpus when they arrive. I am holding out for the X38's - nvidia chipsets have failed to impress me and the X38 boards may signal the end of chipsets from nvidia.

I'll post more when i get home! tbc

[PK|Elite]

lol i meant PCI-E, its difficult to get any PCI card anymore lol

and i only sggested getting PI cos argarf was thinking about motherboard aswell

[PK|Argaf]

Yeah, it sounds to me like it's better to do the whole hog rather than just upgrading the gfx card.
My Case, SATA drives and PSU are probably the only reusable bits from my current kit (If I don't pass on my entire system), so if I do upgrade it will be a combination of motherboard (onboard 5.1 sound), matched memory (2gb), cpu (prefer intel and not really wanting to overclock much), and gfx card (single card don't want to crossfire/sli it - though extra physics card as add-on may be interesting in future).

I don't see any games making use of more than 2 cores in the mid-term, so quad-core would be wasted.

[PK|Elite]

I don't see any games making use of more than 2 cores in the mid-term, so quad-core would be wasted.

crysis apprently supports quad core

[PK|Cerro]

Careful with the PSU - may not be compatible with newer motherboards, Core 2's have different power requirements to P4s so it might not work - worth checking if you intend to reuse it. Also check it against the tiered PSU listing I have in conflict's PSU thread.

CPU I would go with either a 6750 (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=632054) or 6850 (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=632056). 6750 is good enough for everyone's needs, since cpus are pretty much overpowered but can't hurt to have more! If you got for one of those you need either a P35 board or a 680 board (650 may work, not sure) but it needs to support a 1333FSB. Since I've already mentioned that the nvidia chipsets are pants, I'd stick with a P35 (or X38 if available). The X38's extra PCI-Express slot won't be needed but it will leave room for a physics card - some P35s will have room for it I think but it will either steal from your gfx card lane or use a x1 lane, which isn't ideal. Being an enthusiasts board, the X38 will have more features. The Quad core support will be more of an advantage next year, when Core 4 appears (different design and architecture to current Quad core)

I personally wouldn't use onboard sound - extra load on cpu, more prone to glitches and its quality isn't that great. Better to get an X-FI, which can be found for as little as £25 for the basic one (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=527290), more for digital connections etc. Some motherboards do come with very nice soundcards, but if its not an X-FI, then im not interested!

GFX card - depends on your screen and resolution settings. If its a 20" or less and 1280x768 or less then a 8800GTS 320Mb (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=545080) would do, but bigger then go for a 640mb version - or just overkill with a 8800GTX - don't bother with an ultra.

Memory is still the toughest part. If you get an X38 you will have to use DDR3, if you get a P35 you can use either DDR2 or DDR3 (or both but the board will cost more). Right now, I'd say DDR2 1066Mhz but with a 1333Mhz CPU and once DDR3 gets settled, it will be the memory of choice. The only problem with it right now is the horrible latencies which means high performance DDR2 will generally be better - until DDR3 becomes more established. Some PC8500 Corsair dominator's would be perfect for DDR2.

Elite PCI cards are still easily available (http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.aspx?sku=334929) and they have their uses - just no gamer needs them.

[PK|Sam]

I don't think Crysis is going to be all that good, I have a 7th sense for this kind of thing which has never been wrong.

[PK|Colonel Ames]

AGP will not see the end of next year if you ask me. so it's time to do the big upgrade. new mobo, cpu, ram and gpu.

as much as i hate to admit it (being a hardcore AMD fan) Intel is the way to go at the mo. i tend to stick with Asus boards as they are usually a lot quicker that most others. they are also extremely easy to OC with, intel chips are not my forte so cerros advice is sound in that area. with GFX cards, go for the 8000series NVidia cards. although there isn't a lot out for them atm, the higher models are pretty future proof for at least a year (which by modern starndards in PC building, is a very long time). you'll probably want to think about a bigger PSU as well. i don't the 600 will cut it in a new system like that.................. but from what we all gather, you've got more than enough money for this shit.

[PK|Elite]

or the ATI alternative which i think is a HD-X1900

[PK|Colonel Ames]

ATI are greasy poop now. i'm sure in time they may just catch up to NVidia again but not right now. its like AMD and Intel, they've been too-and-froing for ages. Intel are on top at this moment in time, but AMD will leap frog them sooner or later, and after that intel will leap frog again. it's never ending.

[PK|Deep Blue]

Just noticed the quad cores are a very similar price to the duos?

To quad or not to quad? better waiting for core 4 or what?

I am building up my shopping list, the BreachLAN xmas party will coincide with alot of new releases, so best be ready :)

I like most of the guys here are pretty clueless about hardware these days :)

[PK|Cerro]

The ATI DX10 card is on level with an 8800GTS 640mb... so its not really worth it. The 8800GTX/Ultra will beat it, although the Ultra ain't worth the extra cash imo.

ATI are now AMD - been bought over. But ATI were struggling, as AMD are struggling just now (seems odd that they decided to buy them over - why take on extra weight?). Trouble is Intel still lead the graphics market and I guess that is the idea behind purchasing ATI. You probably won't see support for Crossfire on Intel boards anymore - perhaps not for intel CPU's altogether, should ATI stop making its crossfire chipsets for intel. Although Intel now do SLI - swings and roundabouts!

I'm sure AGP cards will continue to exist in some form, much like 32Bit, SD-DDR , VGA and PCI will carry on... it will of course lag behind as less is invested in it but it will still have a "useful" lifespan for the next 2 years. Just look at Valve's hardware survey, most people still use 32bit and AGP so its hard to kill off an old form factor. Gamers like us will of course upgrade far more often, but the average user will happily run their PC into the ground - which is whenever MS says their PC can't handle the newest OS.


The next Core 2 Duo (January next year) will have more cache and run at 1333Mhz, the follow on to that will be the C2D successor and will probably have 8 cores - should appear late next year and is rumoured to be a massive step up from what we currently have.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a Quad unless i was getting it for close to C2D prices... if the difference is small there is no reason not to get one, but for £75-100 you might be better spending it elsewhere... Forgot to mention X38 will be PCI Express 2.0 - which should make a noticeable difference to your graphics cards(s).

[PK|Deep Blue]

My PC rolled over and died last night, it has been through many LAN partys (over 10)

I have specced my new machine, opinons, suggestions welcome :)

Intel Core 2 Duo E6850
Asus Commando Intel 965 (Socket 775)
Corsair 2GB DDR2 XMS2 Dominator PC2-8500C5 TwinX (2x1GB)
Antec Nine Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound (3.5g)
5 * Samsung SpinPoint T HD501LJ 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
BFG GeForce 8800 GTX OC2 768MB GDDR3
Corsair HX 620W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU
Western Digital Raptor 36GB

[PK|Cerro]

*Thread Hijacker!*

CPU is fine but not compatible with P965 boards due to increased FSB. Well actually you will probably get away with it on that board but you'd need overclock settings, so might not boot. 680i board or P35 board will certainly take that cpu - alternative is to pick a non-1333FSB cpu.

The Commando is a good motherboard which has alot of extras and functions (which you'd expect from a high end Asus board) that you won't get on most boards like the P35s - good for overclocking too. If you switch to a P35 board then you'll need to get a DDR2 version. The easiest alternative is either a 650i/680i with a recent BIOS or any 680i that is FSB1333 compatible, the high-end 680i boards were all originally released with thos compatiblity. Something like the ASUS Stiker, Gigabyte's 680i and possibly the MSI 680i should all be compatible with then new Intels from the very first bios. Only difference between 650i and 680i - is SLI, although some 650i's do, do SLI but with lower PCI-Express lanes.

The problem with 6 sata hard disk is it leaves no room for sata optical devices and IDE isn't going to last much longer - plus the new sata drives are really quick and a x20 Dual layer dvd burner is nice!

The ram is good - its the same type I got, but i'd recommend getting the fan for them as they tend to get hot. That ram is not compatible with the ASUS Striker though, abit retarded but this high-end motherboard can't take high end ram - it just fries it! Although on the corsair site they say that the two are the perfect match... :/

Other than that, its fine.

[PK|Colonel Ames]

dude if you can afford that shit then go for it.
I do suggest you go for a bigger PSU though, like the enermax Galaxy 1000w also through in a good sound card like a Creative X-Fi Extreme Gamer.

[PK|Cerro]

Yeah - check the tiered list of PSUs I posted earlier on conflicted "failed PSU" thread. I wouldn't go for an X-FI Gamer unless it was really needed, the basic X-FI can be had for £25 and is exactly the same except it has different connections - so unless you got a digital input/output for something then its not really needed.

The only one that is actually different is the platnium X-FI - think that has 'technical' differences.

[PK|Deep Blue]

So for an idiot, what would be my revised Spec sheet look like?

Also I dont want to spend £200 on a 1Kw PSU

[PK|Cerro]

Depends what you want - 650i/P35 non-SLI, Nvidia/Intel. OR 680i Nvidia SLI ?

If you are willing to lower the CPU to an E6600 then you can stick with the ASUS commando.

So mobo choices: EVGA 680i (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=491417) - its over its initial RAID issues and is one of the few nvidia motherboards that is compatible with the ram you've chosen. Most only accept up to 800Mhz stuff. Has pretty much everything the commando has but more expensive. SLI ready.

ASUS P5K-E/WIFI (http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=615971) P35 - komplett have it in stock but its £20 more, about the same price as the commando but not quite as many nice features, does have wifi built in though and will certainly be compatible with your ram. No SLI.

The Corsair HX is rated Tier 2 and thats pretty solid. I'd say more wattage but if its SLI ready then it must be pretty capable. At £80 it ain't bad but you can get 750W for £5 more, you can get a Thermaltake Toughpower 750W (http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.aspx?sku=338066)- same tier and it is SLI ready, despite not mentioning it on komplett.

should look something like this:

Intel E6850
EVGA 680i OR ASUS P5K-E
Corsair PC8500C5D with fan
Geforce 8800GTX
Thermaltake Toughpower 750W

+Case
+1-6 Hard Disks (SATA)
+0-2 Optical Drives (SATA)

You've only got 6 sata ports either way, so you have to decide between 4 or 6 hard disks and having IDE or SATA optical drives.

[PK|Deep Blue]

Thanks for your reply cerro,

I don't like the reviews that came along with the EVGA board, I am not all that fussed about SLI - one GTX card should last me untill the next upgrade!

Think i'm going to go with the Asus P5K Deluxe WiFi Intel P35

I'm confused - The board runs at 1066 with a FSB of 1333mhz? is that the speed of the memory? What is the memory that you would recommend me buying?

In two minds about hard drive quantities, but thats for another day

[PK|Cerro]

1333Mhz is for the CPU, 1066 is for the supported RAM speed - they don't have to be on a 1:1 ratio anymore. I'll explain (this goes most for overclocking):

FSB = base clock x4
1333Mhz / 4 = 333.25Mhz

base clock x CPU multiplier = CPU Clock speed
333.25 x 9 = 3.0Ghz

RAM is different - how its calculated varies between each companies bios but usually its a ratio of CPU clock speed. In this case it will be something like "1:0.75" or possibly "unlinked" which means a free ram clock (but that tends to be much less stable).

The ram you've picked will work fine on that board.

I'd agree - the EVGA didn't get rave reviews but its had significant bios upgrades which have solved alot of problems but still, i'd go with a P35 over a 680i board. My board has gone through several bios updates and while they usually fix some annoying problem they tend to create another at the same time, one was fucked up voltages in the bios (it wouldn't actually apply the right voltage setting) and the newest one now prevents my PC booting while any usb device is connected, they have to be removed and then plugged back in once windows has loaded up... how they managed that and didn't noticed, i'll never know.

[PK|Deep Blue]

Oookay

Thanks for clearing that up for me, so the spec as of now, looks like;

Intel Core 2 Duo E6850
Asus P5K Deluxe WiFi Intel P35
Corsair 2GB DDR2 XMS2 Dominator PC2-8500C5 TwinX (2x1GB)
Antec Nine Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound (3.5g)
5 * Samsung SpinPoint T HD501LJ 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
BFG GeForce 8800 GTX OC2 768MB GDDR3
Thermaltake Toughpower 750W
Western Digital Raptor 36GB

Got a part number for the cooling fan for the ram?

[PK|Cerro]

Yup - right here. (http://www.komplett.co.uk/k/ki.aspx?sku=325110)

or you can buy the combined ram and fan together - its like £2 cheaper or something...

[PK|Deep Blue]

Still struggling with motherboard choices :(

Need Raid 5 thinking Asus P5K Deluxe WiFi but not 100%

Do I or don't I?

[PK|Cerro]

All P35's and 680i's do Raid 5.

[PK|Deep Blue]

I think I'm sorted then :)

[PK|Colonel Ames]

let us know when you're rigged up again big man!

[PK|Deep Blue]

Update:

New PC bits have been ordered, supposedly arriving tomorrow to chez dex's work. So all in all, I will see you before the weekend, failing that the GF is away weds for a week, So I will have plenty of time to enjoy my new wee beastie!

[PK|Argaf]

Well guys I have made a purchase of my new system (currently in build with dell):

Specs as follows:

System: DELL XPS420
Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Quad-Core™ Processor Q6600 (2.40GHz, 8MB, 1066MHz)
OS: Windows Vista® Home Premium - English
Warranty : 1 Year XPS Premium Hardware Support (incl. Gaming and On-Site Support)
Memory: 3072MB 667MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [2x1024/2x512]
HD: 640GB Dual Hard Drive Raid 0 Stripe (2x320GB - 7200rpm)
Graphics: 512MB NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT card
Optical: 16x DVD +/- RW Drive

It is an X38 motherboard, and even though the RAM is DDR2 (not DDR3) I'm happy with it.

So not quite a cutting edge machine, but for €816 ~ £600 I reckon a good deal.

[PK|NssB]

OK,

Let me just put that machine into a little perspective.

I run an Athlon XP 1600(1400Mhz) with 512MB RAM and an NVidia FX5200 128MB Gfx card.

Now, I got a headshot in on you with that steaming pile of horse**** :vader:

You feel better now? :)


NssB

[PK|Argaf]

Ah, but while you were getting that headshot I was:
planting the bomb
killing all the other CTs
having a cup of tea
doing the washing
and
tag spraying all over the map

then ur shot hit

:P

[PK|NssB]

Ah, but while you were getting that headshot I was:
planting the bomb
killing all the other CTs
having a cup of tea
doing the washing
and
tag spraying all over the map

then ur shot hit

:P

Uh huh..... funny thing is, I was giving my 2 year old a go at the time. Go figure :rolling_e

[PK|Argaf]

But i haven't even got my new rig yet :P

[PK|NssB]

But i haven't even got my new rig yet :P

And looking at your signature, you still outperform my 'current' rig by about 10 years :P

[PK|Colonel Ames]

LAWL. now now children. we all know Amesy will pwn j00s all. hehehe
bring on the soleft :robo:

[PK|Cerro]

I was gonna go X38 but after reading the reviews and the short term life span of the motherboards CPU compatibility I decided against it - I don't use SLI/X-Fire and the performance difference between the two is pretty small.

Still £600 is a good deal for the computer, good cpu, expensive motherboard and a good gfx card! On the downside, you got lumbered with an annoying OS, not much in the way of disk space and cheapy ram. I suggest you ditch that ram, it will be the cheapest stuff dell could get and its only 667Mhz - with that CPU you'd want 1066 or 1333Mhz stuff to replace it.

You don't want DDR3 in any case, still far too expensive and performance wise not a big upgrade over the top DDR2 sticks. Come the next set of chipsets and more time for DDR3 to mature and it will be worth getting.

[PK|AvP]

I'm upgrading my comp too :)
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY-093-CR&groupid=701&catid=8&subcat=817 x2
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CP-197-AM&groupid=701&catid=6&subcat=
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-254-AS&groupid=701&catid=5&subcat=
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-065-OK&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1009

wat u guys think?

[PK|Cerro]

Save yourself money and don't get an 8800 Ultra, just go with a GTX - performance difference is minimal (but the price isn't).

Wouldn't go with AMD X2's when there are much better processors out - AMDs new line of processors is good for those on a budget, if you've more to spend then buy an Intel as the price/performance ratio is the same. On top of that X2's are notorious for having problems! And are from the previous generation of CPUs.

I lean towards OCZ or Corsair for ram - personal preference from an overclocking view point.

I'd avoid overclockers - its run out of a shed and isn't exactly reliable, they can usually be beaten for price by Scan or Komplett.

[PK|AvP]

cheer ill have to take another look now XD all that planning out the window... lol i have no idea about processors can anyone give me an idea of wat to get.... my overall spending is £800 lol need motherboard gcard processor and 4g of ram :)

[PK|Deep Blue]

cheer ill have to take another look now XD all that planning out the window... lol i have no idea about processors can anyone give me an idea of wat to get.... my overall spending is £800 lol need motherboard gcard processor and 4g of ram :)

Keep in mind that XP pro supports 3gb of ram max :) So unless you are taking the vista route.....:deadhead:

[PK|Cerro]

even though XP doesn't support all the ram, i'd get 4gb rather than 3gb. You can't support dual channel with 3Gb for a start.

[PK|Benjy]

Looking at the differences between the 8800 and the ATi HD3870:

The 8800GT gets about 15 more frames a second on most things, but is marginally more expensive than the HD3870.

The 3870 seems to have smoother movement, but I can't be certain that the 8800 I looked at was set up wrong.

ATi Cross-fire works better than NVidia SLi in my oppinion.

The ATi HD3870X2 is getting better frame-rate and smoothness than the 8800 ultra, with alot of the cost spared.

---

Sorry for 6 day's late, I hope this info is still useful.

[PK|Cerro]

X-Fire vs SLi? Moot point... get neither! Unless you have bought the best of everything else for your PC or see the need for 4 monitors with SLI (or two with X-Fire - or any other standard card these days) then you are wasting money.

I still wouldn't buy an 8800 Ultra or any other top end gfx card because price-performance wise you are losing out. I would avoid ATi because it says alot when the best drivers you can get for your card, are made by a 3rd party - not by the cards makers!

In short: 8800GT for price-performance and 8800GTX for pure performance. If I HAD to buy a new card now it would be the GT, i'd wait for the better cards to appear... ones capable of running games like Crysis on max settings.